Grade 7 | Lord of the Flies Discussion Board
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The "right" interpretation depends on 1) how much you think about your topic, 2) how much time you put into critical analysis, 3) how much evidence you provide to support your claim.
LotF Discussion Board Topic
When Lord of the Flies was published in 1954, the world was still recovering catastrophes of WWII and trapped in a state of confusion brought upon by the Cold War. Golding's novel may appear to be a children's adventure story, but it actually has so much more to offer: moral lessons, as well as commentary on society and the heart of the human condition.Among other things, the novel...
1) examines leadership and power.
2) reveals the superficiality and fragility of civilization.
4) offers a dark, pessimistic view of our innate human nature.
4) challenges the deep-rooted belief that children must be naturally virtuous.
5) questions man's capacity for goodness/evil.
Prompt:
Pick a topic from the list above (or create your own!) and explain why you think it is the most significant/important/interesting aspect of the novel, one that deserves the most attention and discussion.
I believe this book questions good and evil, you would usually think kids are innocent but this book proves that wrong. This book starts off with the kids civilized and the way it was back home and eventually at the end everyone becomes savages and they go completely insane. This is due to not having proper everyday things they used to have for example food other than coconuts and meat or clean clothes or being clean in general. I believe this is the most signifiant part of the book because I never though these kids would do anything like kill other kids on purpose. This is one of the most important things in the book that happens because is it possible there are no adults and they just do whatever they want to do, no matter how bad it really is.
ReplyDeleteLotF provided much insight on a human's true nature. Throughout the story, you will find many cases where the boys struggle with their inner-selves. This was a key point throughout the book, and I think William Golding used this to portray the evil he saw in man's heart during WWII. Some examples of this include Roger, Jack, Simon, and Ralph. At first, Roger is supressed by the laws of the old world. He cannot bring himself to hit Henry when he throws the rocks. Later, evidence states that he takes pleasure in causing pain, such as when he killed Piggy. Jack is perhaps the most bloodthirsty, and he is the first to fall to savagery. Though he denies the existence of the "beast" at first, he comes to worship it like an idol. Simon was perhaps the kindest boy in the book. He was willing to give his meat with Ralph, and he always strived for peace. It is possible to draw many comparisons between him and Jesus through their actions as well. However, what I found interesting was when he was hallucinating and thinking the Lord of the Flies (really a pig's head on a stick) was talking to him. The LotF was telling him that the beast was actually the evil inside them. He tempted Simon to have fun on the island, which really meant to become a savage. This made me think that since Simon was hallucinating, he was already subconsciously aware of the evil inside of everyone including himself. Lastly, Ralph who was perhaps the most rational (except maybe Piggy) also showed signs of savagery. When Simon was killed, Ralph did not try to stop them. The next day however, he realizes what had happened proving that he had been unaware of what had happened for a period of time.
ReplyDeleteI agree with what you said about how the Lord of the Flies was showing Simon that the real beast was the evil inside of the boys. This was interesting to me because when the Lord of the Flies was tempting Simon and he refused, he ended up being killed by the rest of the group when they thought he was the beast. The boys were afraid that Simon was the real beast so they killed him proving that the beast was the evil inside of them the whole time.
DeleteLord of the flies covered many metaphors involved with the book, such as Bezlbar as jack, but my favorite symbol was Piggy's glasses. It represents how intelligence can be overlooked, just like the glasses and Piggy. It also represents the common Greek myth when Prometheus steals fire from the gods and is respected by the humans. The he is punished by having his liver eaten every day for eternity.The littluns would be humans because of the respect that they give him new position as Chief. The gods would be Ralph, Piggy, Sam and Eric because they have wisdom like the gods. Lastly, Jack would be Prometheus because he looses respect to gain it. The eating of the liver would be the guilt that Piggy died because he stole the glasses. It also represents how they are starting over and how this small tool from "the old life" helps so much. It is represents advancement in civilization.
ReplyDeleteIan, you made some very clever observations and I am impressed with your comparisons to Greek mythology. I am not as knowledgeable on that subject but curious as to why you think about Sam and Eric like gods. I didn’t feel as if they played roles of power compared to Ralph and Jack. I can see putting Piggy in that category because he continues to speak up and insist on the importance of rules and order. That was great commentary; I’m interested in learning more.
DeleteI enjoyed your input on my comparison, to clarify I belive the twins are similar to Artemis and Athena, because just like the twins they have wit and hunting skill. I know the more evident to select Apollo and Artemis but Sam and Eric do not have there own identities. I also compare Zeus to Ralph and Simon to Hades making his was to the underworld. Thank you Juliet for the question.
DeleteOne of the key aspects of Lord of the Flies is that it offers a dark, pessimistic view of our innate human nature. William Golding shows that the boys that are stranded on the island are not yet barbaric and murderous at first. But as they go on and they figure out that they could do whatever they wanted without getting caught, which shows that their inner human nature, passed down from generation to generation throughout all human beings. Golding describes that everyone eventually falls toward their selfish, evil nature. But, when authority higher than them comes, such as the naval officer that comes to rescue the boys in the end, they try to cover it up and pretend to be innocent. This supports that our true human nature may be vicious and cruel inside, but we try to cover it up when authority higher than us appears since they have the power.
ReplyDeleteOne aspect of the book is how the boys became barbaric. The quick turn from a refined to a savage society is a crustal topic. Without adults the boys had to survive, and they could have but, there were some set backs. The lust and ''hunt for meat as food disguises the blood-lust to kill''(pg 212 Simon). When the symbol for the domestic society of the boys (the conch) was disregarded the savagery started. Also the beast which represented the fears of the boys consumed the boys to kill Simon. Then Piggy was killed and next was Ralph. Luckily, Ralph wasn't killed but even Ralph injured people. Then when the navy solder came and blew his whistle everyone came to where he was standing. Leaving the island everyone wept and mourned for those killed and everyone became civil again. The presence of older parent figures really helps keep the kids in line. So no matter how refined you are there is still savageness inside you and that will never cease to exist.
ReplyDeleteOne day, young prep-school boys from decent families in ordinary society are swept from school in attempt to rescue them from nuclear attack. The next day, they find themselves stranded on a desert island with no authority figures, no preparation, no rules, no food or shelter. Society as they knew it was leveled. Golding uses this story and his characters to personify the horror of his World War II experiences. He shows how dark the world can become when struggle for power impacts society. Lord of the Flies shows the fragility of society when basic aspects of life as you know it are demolished. When the boys first gather, Ralph attempts to create order as he knew it existed from his naval father by establishing leadership, some social order, roles and responsibilities that represent the value of many roles in civilized society. In contrast, Jack immediately a rebel in the absence of adult authority acts violently to gain other’s following within his tribe. Jack’s primal behavior in hunting the pigs, allowing fires to burn out of control, and using violence against the other boys shows the darkness of how one can become in survival mode. The reaction of all of the characters in being a part of this power and survival struggle in aligning with Ralph or Jack represents how easily life as we know it can deteriorate without order.
ReplyDeleteI believe that this book questions man's capacity for goodness. I only say goodness because most of the book is very sad, dark, and evil. There are not many signs of kindness/goodness throughout the book. With the book taking place during World War 2 it makes it seem there is only evil in the world. In the LotF the boys don't have any desire to be nice or good to each other, when Ralph became chief there was already hatred between him and Jack. Jack had no capacity for goodness in him. He always wanted to do things his way. He would never followed the rules, he would never listen, and he wanted to have power, I think Jack seemed to like power a lot. He was the leader of the choir also known as the hunters, and wanted te be chief, and then ended up having his own tribe that he ruled. With no parents around Jack couldn't be stoped. Golding shows that man having no capacity for goodness can lead to bad things, and savagery. Kind of like World War 2 there was no goodness so it lead to bad things, and death. I think Simon was the only character that had goodness, and once the only person that had goodness in them that was killed everything took a turned barbaric. There was no hope for any kind of goodness for the boys once Simon was killed, kind of like how, once Adam and Eve took a bite of the apple there was no hope for them. Even in todays world man still does not have any capacity for goodness in them. LotF gives a strong image of how evil is in everyone, and it can't go away, even in the most caring of hearts.
ReplyDeleteI believe that Lord of the Flies is a book about how humans truly are, how humans truly act when they are left alone, stranded on an island far away from society. They start of with order, then arguments, an eventual split, and then fall into savagery. You have kids who respect and want order through and through, like Ralph and Piggy, but you also have kids who wanted order at first but then fell into savagery, like Jack and Roger. Roger couldn't hit a kid with a rock towards the middle of the book, then becomes bloodthirsty in the end, killing Piggy with joy and no regret. He then "sharpens a stick at both ends" before hunting for Ralph. This leads me to believe that Roger has completely become a savage, free of the law and order of the past world. If the sailor who saved them in the end didn't come at the time he did, how far would Roger have gone? Would he have brutally killed Ralph? Torture him? Many things could have happened if the sailor didn't come to their rescue. Same thing for Jack. He wants order at first, but then breaks away and becomes a savage. He, without thinking (I believe), orders the island to be set on fire to kill one kid. Jack burned the fruits, killed a few animals, and scorched the island in the process to route out Ralph. If they did route out Ralph and kill him, how would the others survive much longer? Their main food supply was destroyed by Jack, the island is left in remains, which made me think: how far did Jack go/ how far was he willing to go to kill Ralph? Would he have completely burned the island to the ground, killing many kids, for one person? This proves the point that most humans (like most kids on the island) without law and order, will become savages. Only a few humans will try to be smart and rational, like Ralph and Piggy.
ReplyDeleteI feel that LOF had many important topics but I feel that one of the most significant topics was how easily a society can fall and how fragile on is. The book started off where Ralph and Piggy found and blew the conch summoning all of the littluns. Then, Jack and his choir joined them. Jack wanted his group to be the hunters. Ralph was then elected chief over Jack which eventually made Jack envious. Jack was always trying to over rule Ralph. He eventually left bringing others such as Roger with him. Ralph's society fell because one person didn't agree with his terms. This resulted in Piggy dying and almost Ralph too. Another example was when the navy officer came to take them off the island, all of the boys straightened up and didn't say a word. This reminds me of the movie The Secret Life Of Pets because when all of the animals owners left the house, the animals were out of control like the boys on the island. They both weren't under adult supervision and were both out of control.
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed your mention of Secret Life of Pets. Do you believe that a dog whistle can represent the conch, because just like the conch,the dog whistle brought those people together. Could you also compare the cats to Jack and the choir because they both deny the "Taboo of the old Life".
DeleteI agree with both of you. Devon had said that Ralph's society fell because Jack didn't agree with him. And then when Jack brought the others with him, the ruins of their society on the island ran away and had no chance of coming back. I also enjoyed your mention of The Secret Life of Pets because LotF is a hard novel to understand and when ideas are put in different ways, they can be easier to comprehend. I like how Ian made me think of different ideas in both works that kind of went together even though the novel and the movie are two completely different things.
DeleteI believe that one major theme in Lord of the Flies is leadership and power. Ralph is chief from the beginning, but Jack is thirsty for power. I think the reason that society on the island fell apart was because Jack couldn't stand that Ralph had all the power and Jack brought the others down with him. In the end, Ralph lost power to Jack because the society on the island split and the majority of the boys went on Jack's side. The only people Ralph had were Simon, who got stabbed to death, Piggy, who had a boulder fall on him, and Samneric, who were forced to go on Jacks side. In the end, the savages on Jack's side wanted to kill Ralph because Jacks didn't want Ralph taking his power. When the naval officer came to save the boys from the island, he asked who was chief. Ralph said that he was chief and Jack didn't stop him. I think this is interesting because all throughout the book, all Jack wanted was power and be chief and the one time where Jack could prove Ralph wrong, he didn't. I think he didn't because Jack probably felt like he was finally defeated.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you 100%. Isn’t it weird that Jack didn’t feel the need to stand up and say they he the leader? I also think that Jack was become jealous of Ralph because of Ralph’s position as the leader. I think that Ralph didn’t want to feel responsible for all that has happen on the island, especially since people were killed. Even though Jack had made everyone go to his side, he wouldn’t stand up when the naval officer came.
DeleteWilliam Golding implies that all humans have a good and a bad side to them by showing how when the kids first went on the island they were trying to survive by picking fruit and building shelters. But when Jack gathers a group of hunters and kills the pig, they start to become more blood thirsty and wanted to hunt more instead of focusing on figuring out a way to get off the island. As the book goes on they “by accidentally” killed Simon when he came back from the mountain to tell them that they are what they should be afraid of. After, Piggy and the conch are crushed by a bolder that was pushed down by Roger. I think this symbolizes how they have gone from civilized boys to monsters. The conch being crushed is showing how their civilization came to an end.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you, Alia because they went from young prep school boys to pretty much murderers. Your point about the hunting is very true because they were starting on the right foot but then they just collapsed and became selfish and cold blooded. I really liked your point about when they say that it was by accident but I think it was obviously on purpose. I also agree with you strongly about everyone having a good and a bad side.
DeleteThe leadership and power are amongst the most significant aspects in the novel and deserve special attention. It is interesting how Ralph’s role as a chief and Jack’s desire for power played an important part in changing both characters by the end of the novel – from chosen chief to prey, and from choir boy to self-appointed dictator, who ordered death of his rival by hunting him down as a pig. The protagonist Ralph evolves – he feels that power brings responsibility, he is obsessed to keep a signal fire alive – for the rescue. The antagonist Jack turns into a pure savage – his desire for power is all he cares about; the signal fire means nothing to him – he confronts Ralph by saying that he gives “orders that don’t make any sense” (123). The book clearly shows the different sides of leadership and power on the island – Ralph’s vision, based on democracy, order, responsibility, rules, and civilization, and Jack’s - based on fear, violence, dictatorship, and chaos. The symbols of the conch and painted faces “masks”, used by William Golding, help to visualize the authority and liberation from any rules the boys were to follow before. The boys who followed Jack, painted their faces, and hiding behind those masks liberated their true nature - the desire to kill, torture and dominate – brought death to Simon, Piggy, the torture of twins Sam and Eric, and the nearly close death of Ralph.
ReplyDeleteI think LOTF examines power and leadership. I think Golding examines this in his novel by making two of the main characters (Jack and Ralph) have completely different personalities. Jack was more of a dictator, he wanted and took complete control over his tribe, where as Ralph gave the members of his tribe more leeway when it came to giving ideas, and letting them speak at meetings. Ralph acted more like a leader than Jack. When all the characters in the book were together at the beginning things were good, although there were occasional fights. For the most part things were good, until Jack got greedy and wanted more control, more power, he wanted more than just rule over the choir. So Jack decided to split from the tribe and create his own tribe were he was the sole ruler and dictator. In doing this he started a war between what was left of the original tribe and his own tribe. During this war two lives were lost, the fact that the need for power resulted in two deaths is tragic. Also, that someone’s greed can lead to not one, but two murders.
ReplyDeleteI think that Golding's view of human nature presented in LOTF is accurate. In my opinion, humans are inherently evil. I feel that when humans are challenged to be good and aren't controlled by rules and regulations, they will choose the easier route and become "evil." As presented by Jack and the hunters, when Ralph's laws become worthless, Jack and his pack don't try to create a different civilization; they become savages. Another example is when Roger is throwing the stones near Percival he is affected by the "taboo of the old life," still thinking he still has to follow the rules he used to obey. Ralph, Simon, Piggy, and "samneric" do not go savage because they still follow the laws they created. I feel Golding subtly shows that the littluns are too innocent to sin. Although Ralph still tries to follow rules, eventually even Ralph descends into savagery. At the end of the novel the naval officer that rescues them immediately restores order, because he is a sign of civilization returning.
ReplyDeleteI think that in the novel LOTF, William Golding shows a lot of humor in his writing. I think this because in many parts of this novel Golding entertains the readers with his humor in LOTF. One example of his humor in the novel is when they thought that the saw the beast but it was really just a dead person on a parachute. This shows the type of humor as the kids being very foolish and frightened for no real reason. I think this is one of Golding's bright spots in his writing because this is what keeps you very focused on the novel and it makes it very exciting. In some novels is can be hard to be paying attention and it can get boring throughout the novel but with LOTF, you read some and then the humor in Golding's novel makes it hard to put down. His humor also shows the personality of Golding and the type of humor he uses. I think that Golding would be a very likable person especially because of his hilarious humor.
ReplyDeleteI think Lord of the Flies has both good and bad sides. This can be compared to the life that we live in where there are happy and sad moments. Jack didn’t want Ralph to be leader, so Jack and his tribe wanted to hunt and kill Ralph, so they start fighting and the fight didn’t end up well. Jack was a difficult character and he disobeyed the rules that Ralph made. This is typical of what society is like in the world today. The world that we live in now has no peace, and people break rules and kill each other over power. On the good side, the story ends when the boys get rescued by the naval officers and go back to their homeland. Even though the boys were doing bad things on the island, they were rescued by some good people.
ReplyDeleteI didn't understand this story completely but I believe LotF offers a dark, pessimistic view of our innate human nature. The central theme of Lord of the Flies is the conflict between two competing impulses that exist within human beings such as the instinct to live by rules, act peacefully, follow ethical commands, and value of the group against the instinct to satisfy one’s immediate desires, act violently to obtain authority over others, and enforce one’s will. This conflict might be expressed in a number of ways: civilization vs. savagery, order vs. chaos, reason vs. impulse, law vs. anarchy, the broader heading of good vs. evil, etc. Throughout the novel, Golding associates the instinct of civilization with good and the instinct of savagery with evil. Also, he conveys many of his main ideas and themes through symbolic characters and objects. He represents the conflict between civilization and savagery in the conflict between the novel’s two main characters: Ralph, the protagonist, who represents order and leadership, and Jack, the antagonist, who represents savagery and the desire for power.
ReplyDeleteIn the beginning of Lord of The Flies, society and leadership were once strong and later go down-hill very quickly. When the boys crash-landed on the island, Ralph was able to keep everything in order until Jack wanted power and left the group. Then, when others started to follow Jack, Ralph was less powerful and their small society started to crumble. After everyone left Ralph and Piggy died, the rest of the island turned against him. I believe that this is a good example of society today. In today’s society, everyone wants to be on the side of the person who is the strongest most powerful: that is exactly what happens in the latter part of LOTF. In human nature, as well as wanting to be on the stronger side, many people want to follow what everyone else is doing, especially younger kids. In this novel, the littleuns stay loyal to Ralph until others start leaving for Jack and the rest of them eventually follow. Even though a majority of Jack’s clan is littleuns, the group of boys seems more powerful because of there being more boys on Jack’s side than Ralph’s. Furthermore, another reason most littleuns probably left Ralph’s side is most likely because Ralph began to appear less and less powerful as LOTF came to an end. When others leave and everything is going bad for him, he doesn’t know what to do and almost passes his power and leadership to piggy.
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