Grade 7 Discussion Board Post #2
**Remember**
There is no "right" answer. All things are subject to interpretation. The answer that is most convincing is the right answer.
The "right" interpretation depends on 1) how much you think about your topic, 2) how much time you put into critical analysis, 3) how much evidence you provide to support your claim.
1) Comment As > Select "Name/Url" > Enter first name and last initial.
2) Check the "Notify Me" box so that you can stay updated on the discussion over the weekend.
3) Respond to the question in at least 3 short paragraphs (3-8 sentences each). Reminders: Do not repeat each other's ideas. If someone has already posted a comment that you disagree with, reply to that comment. Try extending the conversation. Bring in an outside perspective, an alternate view. Use appropriate language and grammar!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Initial Post:
First, discuss a theme, character, or conflict in both That Was Then,This is Now and The Outsiders.
Then, compare and contrast the topic you have chosen in each novel.
Response Post:
Read your classmates' posts. Respectfully reply to one that you find fault in. Focus on the facts in the novels and what you know about the novels in your response. Provide evidence that disproves their point. Do not make it personal. Be respectful!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class-Generated Notes to Help With Your Posts...
Themes:
Importance of Family
Loss of Friendship
Dealing with/Overcoming Loss or Grief
Racial or Class Discrimination
Loss of Innocence
Coming of Age
Overcoming Adversity
Peace vs. Violence
Crime Does Not Pay
Character:
Round -- character who is extremely realistic, with a fully-developed personality
Flat -- character who reveals only one (maybe 2 at most) character traits throughout novel.
Dynamic -- character changes throughout novel.
Static -- character does not change throughout novel.
Conflict:
Internal
Man vs. Self
External
Man vs. Man
Man vs. Society
Man vs. Nature/Technology
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sample Response:
Title Your Post with Your Topic --> THEME: DEALING WITH LOSS
TO --> In The Outsiders, a major theme is dealing with loss. Ponyboy loses his parents and Johnny. Dally loses Johnny. Ponyboy, Darry, and Sodapop move on from their parents' death to take care of each other and grow closer. Ponyboy grieves Johnny's death and eventually comes "to stay gold" regardless and write the story of Johnny's heroism for his English paper. Dally, unfortunately, cannot deal with losing Johnny, and he loses his mind and gets himself killed as a result.
TWTTIN --> In That Was Then, This is Now, loss is also a major theme. Mark has lost both his parents. Bryon and Mark lose Charlie, a good friend. Also, Bryon and Mark are in the midst of losing each other. Mark moves on from his parent's death and finds comfort and a sort of stability with Bryon and his mother. This brings Mark together with Bryon. Bryon grieves Charlie's death, feels guilty, and changes for the better as a result. Mark doesn't seem to care about Charlie's death. Bryon and Mark, though I'm not sure what will happen at the end of the novel, are losing each other as brothers and friends.
COMPARE/CONTRAST --> The similarity in both of the novels' treatment of loss is that characters die, and readers witness how each individual character deals with it differently. I think Hinton shows how every person deals with loss and how some can deal with it more positively than others. Another similarity is that when Mark's and the Curtis brothers' parents die, they find new families and grow stronger from the tragedy. A major difference between the treatment of loss is between Dally and Mark. Dally feels so much guilt and anger over Johnny's Death, but Mark feels nothing for Charlie's death.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prompts for Challenging to Your Classmates:
I respectfully disagree because...
I see your point, but...
I see where you're coming from, but I'd like to correct what you said...
I'm confused about...
I have a question about your answer...
I don't understand why you said...
Ponyboys loss compared to Bryon's loss Dealing with loss
ReplyDeleteTO- In The Outsiders the primary relationship was Ponyboy and Johnny's relationship. When Johnny killed a Soc Pony was there to run with him. In the book pony and Johnny were inseparable. When Johnny died pony had to cope with the fact that Johnny was dead. Pony wasn't admitting the fact that Johnny was dead.
TWTTIN- In That Was Then This Is Now Bryon's relationship with Mark was good until Cathy came along. Bryon was obsessed with Cathy and wasn't with Mark as much. Mark never liked Cathy ,And Cathy wasn't very fond of Mark either. when Bryon found out that Mark was selling drugs the relationship between Bryon and Mark fell apart. Bryon reported Mark to the police and they took him away. Bryon felt so bad that he dumped Cathy.
Compare/Contrast- Pony and Bryon both had good relationships. They both had Great friends. Sadly, Pony lost Johnny to death and Bryon lost Mark to drugs. They both had a big recovery from feeling sad. They both ended up fine and at the end of TWTTIN Bryon was speaking with Mark. They both lost friends but in the end they were fine.
John, after reading your comment, it made me realize that I wouldn’t say “Bryon lost Mark to drugs”, because Mark wasn’t taking drugs himself. I would say he lost Mark because of betrayal. They were very close like brothers and Bryon betrayed him, which got him in jail. Another point, which led me to believe that Bryon did not lose Mark to drugs, is money. Probably he would have not done that if they didn’t have money problems.
DeleteJohn, I respectfully disagree with your thought that both Pony and Mark are fine at the end of the novels. In my opinion, both of these characters are forever changed by their relationships and loss.
DeleteWhen Johnny is dying, he tells Pony that he is scared to die. Johnny wanted to die his whole life and in his final moments, he realizes that this isn’t true and he is too young. Pony now sees life very differently. I think that he will have trouble being close to anyone again for a long time. Pony wouldn’t even let Dally touch him after Johnny’s death and the only way he can cope is to write about his feelings.
I also feel as if Bryon will never be fine because he will always question if he did the right thing by turning Mark into the police for drugs. When they were young, they were very similar and practically brothers who drifted apart. Bryon wants to go back to simpler times but knows that he can’t. I actually think that he wonders if things could have changed for them if they both stayed the same and didn’t drift apart. How could he be fine with so many questions?
My goodness! I agree with you all. Bravo!
DeleteDiscrimination of Race/Class
ReplyDeleteTO- In the the Outsiders one of the major themes is discrimination of class. In the Outsiders it was the Greasers against the Socs., which is also poor against the the rich. In the novel the they hate each other because, the Socs. thought they were better than the greasers. Just because they were rich they thought they had more power and were more important and cooler. Just because the greasers were poor they had less and were not as better and not as important as the Socs. They would sometimes get into fights with each other and one of the biggest moments in the book about fighting was the rumble they had.
TWTTIN- In TWTTIN discrimination is not as big as it is in the outsiders, but it still does occur in the novel. The discrimination is not as big because the Socs. are now friends with everyone and there is no hard feelings. In TWTTIN it's discrimination of race not class. In the novel whites and blacks don't really do anything with each other it's whites hang with whites, and blacks hang with blacks. Moments in the novel were discrimination takes place is when a group of boys harassed a black girl when she walked into a store, Bryon was there when it happened and told them to stop. The black girl just missed her bus, so Bryon offered too take her home. He did. When he dropped her one of her friends i think came over and asked why a he brought her here. Bryon said too drop her off. Then when he asked to the girl "What should we do with him", she said "Kill the white bastard''. I think she said that because if she just said nothing or leave him it would have been wrong because blacks don't hang out with whites.
Compare/Contrast- Both novels had discrimination. Both had a separation of people. But one had more than the other. Outsiders had much more discrimination because it was one of the major themes. In TWTTIS discrimination was just a thing because that's how it was in the 1960s and also in the novel.
I see your point about discrimination, but I wouldn’t say it’s just because one class was poor and another was rich. I would also say because of the different values they had and different looks. I also noticed that you said Bryon, it wasn’t Bryon it was Mike Chambers.
Delete@Dennis B. What you said about discrimination is not rich and poor and it is about values and different looks. To me that is pretty much the same thing. It is rich and poor because, the Greasers don't have as many values as the Socs. Little confused about how u said different looks. Everyone has a different look. Also, it is discrimination of rich and poor because the Socs. are the RICH kids and the Greasers are the BROKE/POOR kids.
DeleteThe anonymous is me Antonio
I'm confused why you said “the Greasers don’t have as many values as the Socs”? I meant different set of moral values.
DeleteBy different looks I meant different styles-the Socs looked neat and were stereotyped with good kids, the Greasers looked like hood and stereotyped with criminals. Isn’t it a discrimination on how they looked? For example, Dally looked like hood and had bad manners but in a crisis situation behaved as a hero in the fire.
Antonio and Dennis,
DeleteIt seems like you’re both onto something.
Morals are a system of beliefs that you are taught. So the Socs and greasers definitely have different morals, assuming that their parents (from the different social classes) must have instilled very different morals.
However, values are personal beliefs that you gain throughout your life. For instance, I really value literature and discourse. But this isn’t something that I was taught to value— it came naturally through experience.
So— the question is...what are the differences/similarities between the Socs and greasers morals and values?
Wonderful conversation over here!
testing 1 2 testing 1 2
ReplyDeleteTHEME: METHODS OF SURVIVAL- In The Outsiders and That Was Then And This Is Now, both the Curtis brothers and Bryon and Mark struggle to survive. They both have their own methods of survival. It was really hard for these characters to survive, because they don't have their parents there to care for them. Darry, Soda, Ponyboy, and Mark all lost their parents. Also, Bryon's mom is in the hospital, so she is also never there for him. Mark and Bryon's methods of survival are very different from the Curtis brothers'. Mark steals money and other things to help him and Bryon survive, and Bryon hustles people, also to make money. But they are usually acting alone when they do this. The Curtis brothers had a safer way to survive. Darry and Soda both had a job to make money, and Ponyboy would just hang out with the gang. They had a safer lifestyle, because when they weren't working, they would always stick together. I also think that the Curtis brothers had to stick together all the time because the area that they lived in at the time was vey unsafe with Socs jumping Greasers and having a bunch of fights.
ReplyDeleteI am responding to myself, because as we read Chapter 9, we found out that Bryon's mother is coming out of the hospital. I think this is going to have a huge impact on how Bryon and Mark are going to live now. I think Bryon's mom will get a job and start to make money for them, and care for them. I think this will cause Mark to stop stealing things, and cause Bryon to stop hustling people. I also think this will cause Bryon and Mark to be with each other more often, because they wont have to steal and hustle anymore. Bryon's mom coming out of the hospital is definitely a good thing, unless she can go home, but still have to recover. If that is true, than I think it will have no impact whatsoever on what Bryon and Mark do. Finally, I hope them finding M & M will bring Bryon and Mark back together anyway.
DeleteAre there any father figures in TWTTIN? It seems as though Darry Curtis took on that role for the brothers. Whereas Mark and Bryon don’t have anyone like that except for perhaps Charlie?
DeleteImportance Of Family
ReplyDeleteTO- In The Outsiders, Ponyboy does not realize how much Darry cares for him. Soda tries to tell Ponyboy, but he did not listen. Instead, he runs away with Johnny. When they run away, Johnny had to kill a Soc because he was threatening Ponyboy. They hid in an old abandoned church but they caused it to burn down. Johnny, Dally, and Ponyboy save the trapped children, but Johnny gets hit by a burning wooden plank that had fallen on his back. Sadly, Johnny dies because of this, and Ponyboy realizes that Johnny was not just a really close friend, he was family.
TWTTIN- In TWTTIN, Bryon and Mark are really close friends that live with each other. Mark's parents killed each other and left him on his own. Bryon and his mother accepted Mark as part of their family, even though Bryon's mother was in the hospital. When Bryon started to hang out with Cathy, Mark got jealous that Bryon was spending less time with him. Mark thinks of Bryon as the only family he has left.
Compare/Contrast- In both books, the characters are friends, but behave like a family. In the Outsiders, Ponyboy realizes that Johnny was more than just a friend when he died. In TWTTIN, Bryon realizes that Mark is like a brother to him, but they are drifting apart, and he is feeling sad because they have always been best friends. In both of the novels the characters did not realize how much they mean to each other until they lose them, and even though they were not related, they were family.
“Brotherhood” is definitely a major theme in both novels. But while in TO it seems that the greasers can’t be shaken and are thick as the grease in their hair, in TWTTIN Mark and Bryon have a very deep (like knowing what each other are thinking) relationship, yet they still have a wall between them. Why do you think that is? Is TWTTIN a more realistic depiction of brotherhood and friendship?
DeleteTO- In The Outsiders dealing with loss is a major theme. In The Outsiders Ponyboy had lost his parents and throughout the book, he talked about the times he had with parents that made him happy. When Pony lost Johnny, he was in a way, “shell-shocked”. I saw this because Pony kept refusing to accept Johnny’s death. Dealing with death can be very hard and people can deal with it in different ways. Like how Pony still believed he was alive, Dally went off and basically killed himself by committing police assisted suicide. Dally had robbed a bank with a unloaded gun and then pointed it at the police while knowing that they were going to shoot and kill him.
ReplyDeleteTWTTIN- In That Was Then This Is Now, when Charlie was murdered, Bryon did think about his death and was sad that he was gone, but he really didn’t want to talk to others about it and instead kept it mostly to himself. It think Bryon did this because Charlie was a close friend of his. I don’t think he wanted to really discuss his death with others because it would just make him more depressed.
Compare and contrast- In both novels, overcoming the grief of pain and loss are expressed very differently, but both stories share one thing in common. They both have both “main characters”(Ponyboy and Byron) weren’t very talkative about their losses. But in difference, TWITTEN not a lot of people knew about Charlie’s death but in TO almost everybody did.
TO- In the Outsiders, a major theme is loss of friendship. Ponyboy and the other greasers had to deal with Johnny's death. Johnny dies from the church fire. It was very hard from Ponyboy to get over Johnny's death. Johnny was his best friend, he was always there for him, and they did everything together. In the end, Ponyboy realized he had to continue with his life. Meanwhile Dally did not react as well. Dally was so upset and overwhelmed that he ran off and robbed a grocery store. The cops caught him and Dally held up an unloaded gun and the cops shot him and he died. The greasers now also had to deal with both Johnny's and Dally's death.
ReplyDeleteTWTTIN- In That was Then, This is Now, Bryon and Mark have to deal with Charlie's death. Charlie was their good friend, he worked at a bar and always gave them cokes. He always let them pay him back later. This was especially hard for Bryon because he never had to deal with anything as difficult as the loss of a good friend. Bryon acted differently, he spent a lot of time thinking about Charlie which made him sad. Bryon felt responsible for Charlie's death. Meanwhile, Mark has been
through many things like this before. He got over it quickly. Mark had lost his parents and other deaths did not really matter to him.
Compare and Contrast- In both books, the characters deal with close friends deaths. Even though, everyone acted differently. In TO all of the greasers were very sad about Johnny's death but some characters got over it quicker. It was the hardest for Ponyboy and Dally but they both acted differently. Dally died in sadness and Ponyboy eventually was able to put his death aside and then go on with his life. In TWTTIN the characters responded in different ways to Charlie's death. Charlie was not as close to Bryon and Mark as Johnny was to Ponyboy and the greasers. Similar to Ponyboy it was hard for Bryon to try to forget his friends death. They were both very confused, Bryon started getting in small fights with Mark, and Ponyboy stayed home from school and barley went outside.
By lily
DeleteI respectfully disagree with you, Lily, and I think that the main loss in TWTTIN is Bryon losing Mark. In the end, Bryon turns Mark into the cops for selling drugs after what has happened to M&M. Charlie's death did impact Bryon and Mark, but not as greatly as Bryon losing Mark due to him calling the cops. He sometimes regrets that he turned Mark in, which may affect his life negatively in a sense that he will always have a feeling of guilt surrounding him. Also, even though Ponyboy did suffer a great loss when he lost both Johnny and Dally, he still did what he had to do by going to school. He may have not been the same as he had been before behavior wise, but he still carries on his responsibilities.
DeleteRandy(TO) vs Randy (TWTTIN)
ReplyDeleteTO- in the outsiders randy is a doc that likes to jump greasers. He hung out with all the other soces, such as bob, the soc that Johnny killed. In the end of the story he wasn’t sure if he wanted to stay with the soces or just leave and go with the flow. I guess you could kind of predict this the way randy acted near the end of the book.
TWTTIN- in that was then this is now randy is a hippie. Really, the only part he is in is when he gives bryon and mark a ride to the hospital. He is also really sympathetic and surprisingly really nice.
TO- In TO Ponyboy stays the same in the story even after the death of Johnny. Maybe, since Ponyboy lost his parents before he had learnt how to overcome loss. He was a kind boy at the beginning of the book and at the end of the book he remained a kind boy, though he wasn’t as mature as the other people. He was scared to fight people and only hanged out with the gang. Dally was the one that got mad when Johnny died. He committed suicide, because he could not deal with the loss. Losing someone close to you is very difficult to deal with.
ReplyDeleteTWTTIN- In TWTTIN Bryon changes after Charlie’s death from being a guy who stole things and jumped kids to being, a kind man. He got to think about Charlie’s death and realized after all that life was too short. He decided to stop all the bad things he was doing, to become a very nice guy. In some way, this was his way of dealing with the loss of someone close to him.
Compare/Contrast- In both novels there is someone that dies. In TO Johnny dies and in TWTTIN Charlie dies. They were both very nice people, and it affected those who were close to them. Someone at least gets mad and it changes their whole life. On the other hand, one person in both novels remained good or changed for the better. They both talk of the coming of age. In TO it’s when Johnny dies at a young age and in TWTTIN it’s when Charlie dies at a young age.
I respectfully disagree with you, Ano because even though Ponyboy did not react very much to Johnny dying he still did go through some depression. Anyone will be at least a little depressed from someone that close to you dying. Even though I have never had anyone close to me that died but I know that it would effect me in a negative way.
DeleteIn TWTTIN I think Bryon was never a very bad man and I do not think that he changed himself completely. I think this because he did not change many things from what the book tells you. I can also relate to you because Charlie dying effected Bryon the most because he was one of the closest to him in the book. I also think that even though Bryon changed for the better, it still was not a good experience for him because no one would like their friend dying.
I respectfully disagree, Ponyboy's life was changed forever after Johnny's death. After Johnny's death Ponyboy was devastated and he could not even go to school for a while. Johnny was his best friend and in the book he even stated that he did not know what he would do without Johnny if he died. In the end Ponyboy did recover and continued with his life but I think that he will never forget the day Johnny died. Also, Ponyboy did mostly hang out with the greasers. Sometimes he also hung out with Cherry Valence and some kids from his school.
DeleteI respectfully disagree with Lily because in The Outsiders when Johnny died he just went to tell them, but he didn’t look like it was going to be the end of his life. He was even more concerned about what was going to happen to Dally than Johnny’s death.
DeleteTheme: Crime Doesn’t Pay
ReplyDeleteTO: In “The Outsiders”, there is a lot of conflict between the Socs and the Greasers. Both of the groups are in a class war that ends up in fights that lead to deaths. One bad act keeps leading to another, which brings out the theme that crime doesn’t pay. Both groups have an alliance that is so strong that it leads to bad decisions that hurt so many people. When Bob tries to kill Ponyboy by drowning him in the fountain, Johnny jumps in and stabs Bob, which causes him to die. Johnny and Ponyboy are now forced to run away to avoid jail. This causes a lot of worry with Pony’s brother Darry. Being hidden away in the abandoned church, they end up in the fire trying to rescue children and that is when Johnny is badly injured and eventually dies. The Socs and Greasers continue to rumble, which only leads to more people getting hurt. Instead of the characters realizing how bad events keep leading to more bad things, it is a never-ending circle.
TWTTIS: In “That Was Then, This Is Now” we also see the theme of crime doesn’t pay. At the beginning of the book, Bryon and Mark commit a lot of crimes, from stealing cars to bullying and hustling people for money. This leads to them witnessing their friend Charlie being killed. Bryon moves away from doing illegal things, while Mark just gets into more trouble like doing and selling drugs. This eventually ends up with their relationship falling apart and Mark going to jail.
Compare/Contrast: What is similar in these two books across the themes is that we see a lot of loss that comes from committing crimes. Bad events lead to more bad events because everyone feels like their lives are not valuable. I believe it has a lot to do with them all being poor and not having a lot of family. In contrast, we do see Bryon start to mature and gets away from bad things happening, where Mark’s life just gets worse. I believe that Pony will also mature.
Juliet, I think you have a point when you say "bad events lead to more bad events" that i definently but I do not agree with "because everyone feels like their lives are not valuable." I think you might've said that referring to when when Dally stole from the grocery store in The Outsiders. He tries to get the cops to kill him, not because his life was not worth anything or not valuable, but because he couldn't imagine living without Johnny and the gang not ever going to be complete/the same again.
DeleteI would also like to respectfully point that it's "TWTTIN" not "TWTTIS."
DeleteI see your point, but I respectfully disagree with how you said the bad things was a never-ending circle and it didn't pay. At the end of The Outsiders, the rumble makes sure that the socs stay out of the Greasers' territory. Although I don't like the method they used, it did work. Not only that, in TWTTIN it says that the socs and greasers have stopped fighting. I thought it was ironic that the Socs were even trying to act and look like greasers. I also respectfully disagree with what you said about how Ponyboy will also mature. I think that Ponyboy matured at the end of The Outsiders when he realizes that the fighting was pointless. You can also see this in TWTTIN. Ponyboy likes Cathy and evens asks her out. This shows that Ponyboy is no longer the kid we read about in The Outsiders.
DeleteI must respectfully disagree when you said that crime doesn't pay. Sometimes, on very rare occasions, crime actually helps. If Johnny didn't kill Bob, the fight between the Socs and Greasers might not have happen. Since Johnny DID kill Bob, the rumble happened, the Socs lost, and the Greasers started to live better without worrying about being jumped. I must also respectfully disagree that you said, regarding rime, that "it is a never ending circle." Anything and everything comes to an end, just like the poem Nothing Gold Can Stay states. Furthermore, I disagree that you said that people think that their lives are invaluable. Dally, and others, though that Johnny's life was extremely valuable, in which he said,"We gotta do it for Johnny!" before the fight. Johnny also said"I'm too young to die, Pony, I don't wanna die no more." This leads me to believe that he got another outlook of his life and thought that he has much more to live for.
DeleteI agree with Will respectfully disagreeing with Juliet because, as Will had said, the violence in The Outsiders does end in a way. The Greaser kicked the Socs out of their territory. The rumble didn't stop all fighting, but it will lessen the violence between the two social classes. In TWTTIN, Pony isn't the greaser who was afraid of a lot of things, instead he felt more confident in himself.
DeleteThemes: Importance of Family
ReplyDeleteTO: In The Outsiders, I feel like brotherhood is the main form of family. Brotherhood is very important to The Outsiders and is a major theme. I think brotherhood is one of the most important things in The Outsiders, not only because it’s a major theme, but because it brings all the Greasers together as a gang. For example: When Ponyboy is injured in the rumble between the Greasers and the Socs, Dally gets concerned and takes him to the hospital quickly as if he were his own brother.
TTWTIN: In That Was Then, This Is Now, I think friendship is very important. In That Was Then, This Is Now, Bryon and his mom let Mark live with them because both his always argued and eventually died from getting shot. I think Bryon and Mark have one of the strongest friendships in this novel because they are always there for each other and help each other out when Bryon’s mom is not there. I think friendship is very important in That Was Then, This Is Now because almost every kind of relationship possible (friends, family, and strangers) is based on friendship.
Compare and Contrast:
Compare: Since The Outsiders and That Was Then, This Is Now are similar stories, it is kind of easy to compare them. For starters, their themes are very similar (although very different) to each other. Brotherhood(TO) and friendship(TWTTIN) (the main themes) both involve trust and some kind of friendship. They also both involve a bit of family even though I think That Was Then, This Is Now involves more.
Contrast: In my “Contrast” of The Outsiders and That Was Then, This Is Now, I mentioned how they have two different themes: brotherhood and friendship. Although brotherhood and friendship are kind of the same thing, they are very different in many ways. To me, brotherhood is like unrelated family that always looks out for one another that can never be broken; whereas friendship is a strong bond that at any time could be broken.
THEME: Peace vs. Violence
ReplyDeleteTO: In this novel, violence is a huge part. It stars off with Socs and Greasers jumping each other, then Bob's murder, the rumble, and Dally's death. This all changes into a peaceful matter, having the rumble stop Socs from attacking the Greasers. When you want peace, there has to be conflict. The Greasers wanted peace, but had to beat up/fight the Socs. Dally wanted peace with himself, so he had cops kill him, making it cop assisted suicide. Eventually, a peace-like (or better) society sprung.
TWTTIN: In this novel, there is seemingly slightly more violence than TO. I think this because people openly talk about jumping others/jump others openly. I feel that in TO, that touched the sruface o this, but didn't go into much detail, besides Johnny's jumping with Pony and Johnny's original jump from the Socs. In TWTTIN, jumping and hustling seem very common, Mark and Bryon doing it very often. But after Charlie's death, things start to change. Bryon starts to dislike violence making him more peaceful, at least in the aspect of now being in disgust of hustling. As I stated earlier, you can't have peace without conflict.
Compare/Contrast: In both of these novels, conflict and peace go in common without saying. Pony and Bryon kind of star to dislike violence, while their friends enjoy it. For Pony, it was his gang. For Bryon, it was Mark. Also, the characters Bryon and Pony change, slightly or majorly, after witnessing a friend die. I feel like in both these books, somebody is trying to prevent violence to have peace.
THEME: Crime Doesn't Pay
ReplyDeleteTO: In TO, there are several examples of crime doesn't pay that occur thoughout the novel. One of the most impactful one was how the socs jumped the greasers. I think this was a trigger for many of the misfortunes in the story. I remembered how Johnny was jumped by the socs badly one time, which led to him carrying a switchblade. The second time the socs jumped him, he killed Bob. In a way, Bob did bring about his own death by jumping Johnny. If the socs had simply gone about their business and left the greasers alone, most of the story would not have happened. Although I DON'T think this is Johnny's fault as it was self-defense (don't gove me hate) , Johnny also brought upon his own death. Killing Bob led to him going to hide in the church where he was severely injured leading to his death. All this crime and violence leads to one problem after another. One last example of the theme I picked is Dally. His past of crime and violence led to his death. I feel bad because he was simply born into violence and crime. I wished that he learned from his past and stopped doing what he did. Unfortunately, that was not the case. His constant disregard for the law and reputation also aided in getting him killed.
TWTTIN: In TWTTIN, I feel that crime doesn't pay is less pronounced. However, this does happen in this book. For starters, Mark and Bryon hustle, which leads to Charlie's death. Bryon feels remorse for this and starts to reform. This is the opposite for Mark. Mark simply believes what happened, happened. Mark does not change, and I think this is a huge difference between him and Bryon. This is shown through how Mark steals cars to go to his class when that class is about not stealing cars. Another example is how Mark and Bryon get Angela drunk and chop off nearly all her hair. This leads to Bryon getting beat up badly by Curly and Tim. The weird thing is Angela wouldn't have gotten her hair cut off if she hadn't set that kid to beat up Ponyboy. One last example is of Mike. I don't think it was fair how he got beat up by the black kids when he had only helped Connie. I can understand why Connie did want to hurt him because of how the Mike's gang had harassed her.
Compare/Contrast:
Compare: In both these novels, there is much crime. However, this crime never leads to anything good. Some characters learn from their mistakes, while others continue to do the wrong thing. Both novels kind of have a cause and effect setup where one crime leads to something worse and worse. I could also make comparisons between the characters. Both Ponyboy and Bryon change, while Mark and Dally don't change and say they won't get caught. This leads me to think that something bad will happen to Mark just like something bad happened to Dally.
Contrast: Both stories contained similarities but also several differences. Like I said before, crime doesn't pay was less pronounced in TWTTIN. Another thing that I noticed was how the crimes in TO kept escalating making the situation worse and worse. Meanwhile in TWTTIN there are several crimes, yet nothing extremely bad happens to Mark and Bryon.
TWTTIN: In That Was Then This Is Now they try to focus more on characters but i think the major theme is brotherhood. The reason I state this is because Mark and Bryon are very close but drift apart, but when Bryon was drunk they were close again. Bryon and Mark usually are together and doing hustling and jumping together but when Bryon gets a girlfriend (Cathy) and M&M starts running away they drift apart especially when Charlie dies they stop hustling his place because its close but that's where they hustled, stole, and got drinks so now they are drifting because they don't really have something to connect. Mostly the reason for this is because they have to bring in money, and find M&M.
ReplyDeleteTO: In The Outsiders Ponyboy and Johnny come very close and was always because they were the young ones of the gang. They become more and more close while in the church, and never became far away from each other. When Jonny's death occurs Ponyboy still is close to Johnny because he thinks about him each day and how if he never went into that fire he wouldn't die and they would all have the fight and even Dally would get to come with out any troubles.
Compare/Contrast: I can compare these two easily because both groups of characters were close together like how Mark and Bryon clicked because one hustled and one stole. Johnny and Ponyboy click because of the friendship they both had between them just like how Johnny wanted Ponyboy to have "Gone With the Wind" because he didn't want Ponyboy to forget him. I can contrast them to. Mark and Bryon start to drift apart and stop doing what they were doing at first (hustling and stealing. In TO Ponyboy and Johnny never drift apart. In fact they come more close together in the church.
I actually disagree with my own contrast with Mark and Bryon. They both start going in and out at times they are both very close together like when Bryon was drunk and when he was hurt to. They don't drift apart completely, they both keep coming and leaving. They also did not click to because both of them are completely different people. Bryon wants to do nothing with stealing or killing. Mark on the other hand will kill at any time he even stated that his only regret was missing one of the Texans. Also Mark will steal anything like cars and money related.
DeleteI respectfully disagree with you, Julianna. I'm not sure the reason that Bryon and Mark clicked because one hustled and one stole. I think they became friends because they knew each other in school or in the town they live in. Although they do make a great team while hustling and stealing. In The Outsiders, I don't think Johnny wanted Ponyboy to have "Gone with the Wind" because he didn't want Ponyboy to forget him, I think Johnny wanted him to have it because Ponyboy liked the book and because of the note written inside telling Ponyboy to "Stay Gold".
DeleteTHEME: Importance of Family
ReplyDeleteTO- In The Outsiders, Ponyboy has many people by his side to call friends and family. His brothers are named Sodapop and Darry and they are his real family. Darry takes after him and Sodapop because he is the oldest and his parents died. His best friends are anyone in the gang. They all trust each other and they all treat each other as family. I remember in the book when Ponyboy was saying that they leave the door unlocked just in case on of the guys needed a place to stay for the night. That is being a true friend on their part. I wonder if anything had gotten stolen because they always leave the door unlocked. Another example of friendship and family is when Sodapop and Darry had found out that Ponyboy and Johnny had ran away. I remember when Dally had given the letter that Sodapop had written to Ponyboy. It was saying how he and Darry missed both him and Johnny. The friendship between all of them is unbelievable. I also like how they all look out for each other.
TWTTIN- In That Was Then, This is Now, Bryon and are best friends. They consider each other as brothers, especially since Mark's parents shot each other. After that, Mark didn't have a family, so Bryon and his mother decided to take him in and treat Mark as family. They were poor to begin with and with another kid in the household, would cost more money. Their mother is incredibly loving. In TWTTIN, it says that the mailman brings in any stray cat he finds and takes care of it until it can go back on its own. I like the idea of brotherhood between Bryon and Mark. They do and go through anything together. They trust each other with everything, no matter what it is. Although they are growing apart, they are still holding on and do everything together. One example of this is when they went looking for M&M. Mark could've gone alone, but he asked Bryon to go with him. I think even if they do grow apart, they will still treat each other as brothers and as family.
Compare/Contrast- I think that Ponyboy and Johnny (The Outsiders) and Bryon and Mark (TWTTIN) are very similar. They are similar because both groups of friends treat each other as brothers. I think that they would also do anything for each other. They are different because I think that Bryon and Mark are closer than Ponyboy and Johnny. Bryon and Mark do everything together and treat each other as brothers more than Ponyboy and Johnny do. Since Ponyboy and Johnny are in a gang and are usually around violence, they seem tougher than Bryon and Mark.
I respectfully disagree, Ava, becauase Ponyboy and Johnny are different that Bryon and Mark. Ponyboy and Johnny were always friends, and nothing got between them until Johnny past away. Bryon and Mark are drifting apart even though they were best friends just like Ponyboy and Johnny. Also Ponyboy and Johnny were in a gang but they did not like to fight as much as the others, and Bryon is like them, starting to think about why are they fighting, but Mark wants to get back at people.
DeleteThemes: Overcoming loss/grief
ReplyDeleteTO: In The Outsiders, Ponyboy was arguing with Darry, and Darry slapped him so he ran away with Johnny. When they ran away, Johnny had to kill a Soc because he was threatening Ponyboy. They hid in an old abandoned church but they caused it to burn to ashes. Johnny, Dally, and Ponyboy saved the trapped children, but Johnny gets hit by a burning wooden plank that had fell on his back. Sadly the injury caused him to pass away.
TWTTIN: In TWTTIN Bryon and Mark challenge some Texans to a pool game, and Bryon and Mark won. After the game the Texans wait for them in the alleyway to try to attack them. Charlie defended them with a gun but was shot and killed in the process.
Compare/Contrast:
In both TO and TWTTIN, Bryon and Mark are dealing with the loss and grief of a friend. Pony and Bryon both had great relationships. They both had good friends. Sadly, Pony lost Johnny to severe injurys ( which led to his death). Bryon and Mark are lost part of that close relationship with each other that they had. It seems like Pony and Bryon feel like it was their fault for the cause of their friends death in the books. Since the deaths they also have changed their perspective on life.
Theme: Peace vs. Violence
ReplyDeleteTO: While TO does include many scenes including violence, there are few characters who dislike all the fighting and don't like to participate in any acts of violence. Most of the Socs are pretty into violence, jumping Greasers when they're alone and participating in rumbles. Most of the Greasers besides Johnny and Ponyboy are fine with violence, participating in rumbles and also fighting the Socs back if they get a chance. But, Johnny and eventually Ponyboy aren't very fond of it. Later in the book, Johnny quotes, "'Useless...fighting's no good...'" which shows evidence that he longs for peace between the two social groups.
TWTTIN: Along with TO, TWTTIN also includes a lot of violence. But TWTTIN also shows not only physical damage but mental damage as well. The physical damage in this book refers to scenes such as when Mark was hit by a broken bottle on his head and had to get stitches. But mental damage in this book refers to a specific scene in chapter 9 when M&M was taking LSD drugs. LSD can damage a person's brain completely and cause people who take them to often develop hallucinations and mental problems. But, before M&M started taking drugs, he used to be all about peace, like most hippies. He had a peace medal around his neck, and he refused to fight, even though he got beat up many times. But unlike M&M, there are also many characters that like violence. Mark, the Shepards, and many others like beating people up whether it is for revenge or anger.
Compare & Contrast: In both novels, there is a significant amount of violence and some deaths. All of the fighting they had done mostly shows that both books have more characters that favor violence over peace. While dynamic and round characters like Ponyboy and Bryon change after certain events, others stay the same way in how they think and act. There are a few differences in the novels however. In TO, Ponyboy starts to change after he spends a about a week with Johnny in Windrixville, thinking more about things people say. But Bryon changes when a special girl enters his life that is precious to him. There are also differences between the damage that the violence have done to them. While TO focuses mainly on physical damage, TWTTIN also focuses on mental damage and drugs that can damage a person's brain severely.
Life is precious
ReplyDeleteTO: In the Outsiders it shows how life is precious because when Johnny died it effected Ponyboy a lot. I think most people are mostly sad about someone dying because they know that they will never be able to see them again and a lot of people are said they can't say bye to them. In this case you can't say he did anything to deserve this. That is because he risked his life to save more than one person. This shows how good of a person Johnny is because a lot of people are not brave enough to do that kind of thing.
TWTTIN: In TWTTIN it shows that even people that are very close to you die. In the Outsiders it shows that because not just Johnny died but his parents died too. For Bryon it was probably very hard for him to take it because he had never experienced anything like it. In the book it showed this because Bryon says that he didn't know how he would take it when someone close to him dies and he didn't expect it would be like it was when Charlie got shot.
Compare/Contrast: Both of these books show that people that you love and care for will die and you can't do anything about that. What you can do is you can let it not get to you and carry on and have a good attitude about it. It may be hard but the world doesn't stop when someone dies. Both these books also show that if you let a death get to you, you can turn out like Dally and close family and friends will have two deaths to be sad about.
THEME: IMPORTANCE OF FAMILY
ReplyDeleteTO - -> In the Outsiders family is a major theme, like for the Curtis family if Darry did not become their guardian, both Ponyboy and Sodapop would go to the boys’ home. In their family, Darry and Sodapop sacrificed their own good for Ponyboy to succeed and move on to great things. Though in Johnny’s family they did not love him, left him on the streets to sleep and abused him by hitting him with a belt. Johnny started to want to get hit with a belt, so his parents would notice him. The gang was his family and his friends cared for him a lot, but they couldn’t give him what real family could give.
TWTTIN- - > In That was Then This is Now family is a major theme too. If it weren’t for Bryon and his mom, Mark would be in an orphanage. They adopted Mark which made Mark and Bryon much closer than friends. They loved Mark and treated him just like he was their own child. There is also M&M’s family they love their children, but their father makes fun of M&M for having long hair and for being a hippie. Even Cathy is worried for her brother and thinks her dad is being too mean to him. The way his father treated him, forced M&M out of his house, he then found a “hippie house” where he started doing drugs.
Compare/Contrast - - > The similarity – In both novels families do great deeds in helping someone, be it a brother, or a friend (Curtis brothers to Ponyboy, gang to Johnny, gang members to each other, Bryon’s mom to Mark). In both of the books an individual gets abused and hurt emotionally for no reason or just for being different from others (family to Johnny, family to M&M). Both boys end up bad, one of main reasons because their families didn’t understand and support them. The contrast – In TO the Curtis brothers got stronger as a family by the end. Ponyboy matures and finally starts to understand Darry and how much Darry cares for him and realizes the importance of family. In TWTTIN in case of Bryon and Mark, their relationship is falling apart, though it was great in the beginning and they cared for each other like brothers.
TO- In the Outsiders, the two gangs, the soces and the greasers. They fight with each other because they dress differently and one gang is poor and the other is rich. The soces are the rich gang and they wear nice, clean clothes. They also have short hair. The greasers are the poor gang. Both gangs are white gangs though. They have long hair with grease in it. They always wear leather jackets and jeans. They fight just to prove one is better than the other. All they end up doing is either killing other people or baldy injuring them. It doesn't solve anything. At the end, Ponyboy realizes that fighting doesn't help anyone, especially after Johnny dies he knows that they wouldn't be in this situation in the first place if no one started to fight. I think Ponyboy matures after Johnny passes away and he realizes that there is no point to fighting anymore.
ReplyDeleteTWTTIN- In That was Then, This is Now, the same gangs are still involved but now they are getting along. The greasers go to the soces parties and they are friends. The soces always try to look better that the greasers even though they don't fight a lot anymore. They introduce hippies and race into it. Now there are the white people on one side of town and black people on the other. Both the socs an greasers don't usually get along with the hippies or the "negroes." Everyone goes to the same school. After Charlie dies I think that Bryon matures because he realized that he died to save Bryon's and Mark's life.
Compare and Contrast- Both books include people maturing and some of the same characters even though they have changed between the two books. Both books talk about loos of friends and they show how people react. There are similar characters like Ponyboy and Bryon. They are similar because they both have to deal with losing close friends. They are different because TO talks about two gangs fighting. In TWTTIN the two gangs get along and go against other people they both don't like.
I respectfully disagree because the Greasers are not going to Socs parties because Socs want them to be there. The Greasers are going because the Socs want to seem hip and cool. Also because they want to see whether they are left or right, and talk about politics.
DeleteTheme: Loss of Friendship
ReplyDeleteTO: In TO loss of friendship is a major theme. Loss of friendship is important because it happens at so many points in the book, whether it be as minor as they don’t like each other for a short time, or they lose someone forever. In the book Ponyboy losses his parents and his friends, this is very hard for him to deal with. It was so hard for him to deal with because his friends were very young when they died, and also because they were not just friends to him they were family.
TWTTIN: In TWTTIN loss of friendship is very important in the novel. It is very important because of the people they loss. Especially Charlie, Charlie is like a father figure to Mark and Bryon, he was the only person besides Bryon’s mom that really cared.
Compare and Contrast: The two novels are the same in the sense that they both have substitute father figures, and have to figure most things out on their own. They are different because they both figure things out in their own way. In TO they take a path that is more violence than stealing, but in TWTTIN they took a path that was mainly stealing and getting into trouble with a little fighting along the way.
Your car might be stolen if you don't keep this in mind!
ReplyDeleteConsider that your car was taken! When you visit the police, they inquire about a particular "VIN check"
A VIN decoder: What is it?
Similar to a passport, the "VIN decoder" allows you to find out when the car was born and who its "parent"( manufacturing plant) is. You can also find out:
1.The type of engine
2.Model of a vehicle
3.The limitations of the DMV
4.Number of drivers in this vehicle
The location of the car will be visible to you, and keeping in mind the code ensures your safety. The code can be viewed in the online database. The VIN is situated on various parts of the car to make it harder for thieves to steal, such as the first person seated on the floor, the frame (often in trucks and SUVs), the spar, and other areas.
What happens if the VIN is intentionally harmed?
There are numerous circumstances that can result in VIN damage, but failing to have one will have unpleasant repercussions because it is illegal to intentionally harm a VIN in order to avoid going to jail or calling the police. You could receive a fine of up to 80,000 rubles and spend two years in jail. You might be stopped by an instructor on the road.
Conclusion.
The VIN decoder may help to save your car from theft. But where can you check the car reality? This is why we exist– VIN decoders!